The Podcast Show 2025: Insights and Highlights

Intro: 00:00:01

It's not just all the.

Mark: 00:00:12

Hello there and welcome to in and Around Podcasting, the podcast industry show that highlights a range of powerful podcasting perspectives. And as our friend Mr. James Cridland said, it's not for the highfalutin. So take your FAL and lower them. Lower the FAL. I am the ever absent Mr.

Mark Asquith. I am actually a guest on this podcast more often than not these days.

pisode about The Podcast Show: 2025

England gets a show to rival the best in the world, some might say surpass it, who knows? We'll get into that in just a moment.

Now I am going to hand over to my co host, an actual genuine bonafide host these days of running around podcasting. Done it in just one second.

But do tell a friend that they can listen on any podcast app that they so wish they can find us at in and around podcasting.com and you can give us an X. Give us a tweet, give us an X. What is singular for tweet those days?

thought of the podcast show.: 2025

And he was like, you know, sort of like the old guard, do the intro because, you know, good old days.

But the main man, the talent and the person that I met after six years working together for the first time at the podcast show a couple of weeks ago, it is, of course, Mr. Danny Brown. All right, geese?

Danny: 00:02:01

I'm all right, geezer. And a very good intro as always. Hence the reason why I always throw it over to you. But yeah, that was like. That was fun.

Fun to actually meet you, Kieran and Gary, for the first time in person. Well, maybe. Let's see Gary if he's listening. Yes, we know he is.

Mark: 00:02:14

No, he won't be listening. Are you kidding?

Danny: 00:02:18

And Figma, doing some Figma.

Mark: 00:02:20

Yeah, get off your Figma.

Danny: 00:02:23

I actually found a new piece of tech yesterday called Starter or something like that, or Finder or whatever it was. Wasn't Grindr, Wasn't Tinder, anything?

Mark: 00:02:30

No.

Danny: 00:02:31

Yeah, I bet that's for people that are on. People are on on Figma and It was like a website build or whatever. I was going to ping it over to Gary, see what he thought of it.

Mark: 00:02:39

Oh, you know what it just said? It said something like, yeah, I saw that two months ago. It's all right, but you know I'm not going to use it. Everyone don't like it.

You know, it would have been something along those lines. You know the drill. You know the drill. Designers, mate.

Danny: 00:02:50

And head of designs are even worse, mate. You know, it's like, that's, that's like royalty right there.

Mark: 00:02:56

What are you even designing? Come on. Gordon Bennett. Bloody kids. No one says that anymore, do they? Gordon Bennett said it the other day and someone was like, what does that mean?

I was like, gordon Bennett, you kidding me?

Danny: 00:03:07

Yep. There's too many good sayings that are no longer around or they are around, but they're only for old geezers like us.

Mark: 00:03:13

Yeah, yeah, I know. I said nifty to someone as well last week. I was like, that's nifty. And it was like, oh, my God, you need to just leave.

Danny: 00:03:19

So thanks for that, Mum, I hear you. But yeah, it was like. It was good, really good to come over. This is my first podcast show, London, mate. I've been to obviously a couple of the.

The North American ones, podcast, movement Pod summit last year in Calgary, some of the. The sort of local podcast, et cetera. But this was the first time that I'd come over to the uk, so it was great to meet you guys in person and then B.

To find out what the show was like. It was a very different vibe, which obviously we'll talk about in this bonus episode, but really different vibe from the podcast movements, etc.

And overall I like, I really really like, really enjoyed it. And I know you've been. This is what, your third, fourth year now? Because you've been there since the start, right?

Mark: 00:03:58

Yeah, fourth year. So the podcast show is a weird one.

Danny: 00:04:03

We.

Mark: 00:04:04

lking to them about it, gosh,: 2018

they actually put it off for: 2021

It was, it was, it was, it was sort of a weird, like, knife edge, that one, because it was, well, you know, the lockdowns and such and covert isn't sort of what it was and you can sort of probably do events, but there's no real guarantees because it, like we might do a lockdown again or we might not do a lockdown again or you might have to, you know, social distancing, whatever. And so, yeah, we've, we've been there like weirdly almost involved in chatting to them for like seven years and getting booked with them.

ut the first show wasn't till: 2022

It's been this sort of weird, you know, we've known each other for a long time and I think what's been interesting as well, which we'll get to probably later. Personally, I've been involved in a lot of the.

I wouldn't say like an advisory role, but they've certainly lent on me for advice regarding the challenges that a lot of other conferences have.

You know, some of the challenges that other conferences have around different tracks and, you know, because the industry's grown up so much and there's an industry side to it and there's a big ad side to it and there's an advertiser side and a brand side and. But then there's also a creator side, you know, I think they've lent on me quite a lot for, for advice on how to navigate that setup.

So it's been really interesting, mate. Yeah, and I enjoy, I enjoy, you know, I've enjoyed each year so far.

Danny: 00:05:47

Yeah, and I mean that's. That's like a good point.

I know like a lot of the, the feedback that's been happening recently for the podcast movement as it seems to be more towards side of it, which, you know, as you say, it's natural as industry grows.

I did get the vibe when I was over to the podcast show that it did seem still a nice mix of creator stuff and indies as well as the bigger brands, you know, so your apples, your Spotify's etc. And your big production houses. So it's nice to see that.

So it's clear that advice was taken on board because I'd imagine it must be really hard to try to get that balance right as well. And it was a prime example.

One of the things I liked, which what got great feedback from the show floor was Apple being there in public for the first time as well. You know, a big event as opposed to. Normally you'll see them behind closed doors, behind closed meetings, et cetera. So it's nice to see Apple.

They did a really good sort of kind of mini keynote, if you like about the open podcasting space, how Apple's still your friend and, you know, it's 20 years of Apple podcast or itunes, et cetera.

Mark: 00:06:45

Yeah, weird, weird, weird. Overall, certainly making themselves more present, which is good.

You know, we had a nice meeting with them, as all the hosting companies that were there did, most of them anyway. And, you know, they were on the floor a lot. We got to catch up with them a lot. And they're a great team, obviously.

You know, we worked with them for years now, and they are fantastic people. You know, they're good people. But as a brand, Apple has always been very cloak and dagger with podcasting and stuff.

I remember back in the day, like, you didn't get access to. You weren't ever on the new feature list for integrations if you weren't in a room at podcast movement with them.

And like, like that pissed me right off. And I told them straight a couple of times. I was like, this is absolutely bang out of order.

You know, you control the ecosystem at that point and you can control the life and death of small businesses that feed into our ecosystem. It's absolutely bang out of order that that's how things are done. And, and they, you know, they seem to have listened, which is good.

You know, every hosting, and I'm not saying this from a captivate standpoint, like, every hosting platform that's decent, and when I said decent, what I mean is, like, they actually genuinely have a hosting platform. It's not just, oh, you know, we sort of do.

You know, everyone should have the same opportunity and access to the releases that Apple put out and the integrations and the round one of integrations and so on, and then it's up to the hosting company. If they can't dedicate resource, that's their issue. You know, that's. Everyone should get the same chance because it's unfair otherwise.

And I think that's what stood out to me with them doing this keynote. Like, that seems to have been the last. You know, if you're Apple, you don't do that. You don't. You're not allowed to say anything.

And I get it, you're just not. You, you quite literally are not allowed to have a public profile if you, if you're an Apple employee, which is cool. That is what it is.

But, you know, they've had to go out or not. I don't know if they had to, like, why. Why would they care? Like, there's not that much money in podcasting for them.

So the fact that they've Gone out and done a keynote. The fact that they're trying to level the playing field and give every hosting company access to all new features up front.

Yeah, I think that's marvelous. I do. I think it's great. And I think it shows that they listen. Yeah.

You know, the open podcast standards things, an interesting one for me because, like, we need it and we want it, but it is boring. You know, it's boring, man. And I'm saying that, like, I'm in the industry, like, we built a hosting platform. You know, I'm on the ground with this.

I'm in the weeds with it. I get bored of it, you know, because it's, It's.

It's a lot of, okay, 95, not amazingly useful stuff, and then some of it is pretty good, and that's how we move things forward. But you got to chuck the 100 of the wall and you settle on the five. That moves things forward. That's innovation, that's development.

Okay, but technically, and for. For anyone that's not in the podcast industry or anyone that is in the podcast industry, that's not a nerd like us, like, it is boring. It is.

There's no getting around that. So the fact that, you know, Apple is starting to say, well, we support open standards. You know, we.

We'll support certain elements of that, like the transcript tag and, you know, anything else that they support in the future is. Is all well and good, and I think it just adds credibility to the open podcasting ecosystem. And there'll be a lot of conspiracy people.

This is them going up against Spotify. You know, they're going to support Pod Roll, and, you know, Spotify's created its own proprietary version called linked content.

Like, this is not them going up against Spotify. I. If they were going up against Spotify, Apple, right? They ain't doing it through podcasts. They ain't doing it through podcasts. Right?

They went up against Spotify and they just diversified. They changed. They changed their model to split everything out to different subscriptions. Apple tv, well, guess what?

Can now watch video inside Spotify. Yeah, but Apple's got Apple tv. You know, I've got Ted freaking Lasso. So it's, you know, it's not. This is not like them versus Spotify.

This is just them, in my view, showing that they have thought for creators, and that's important, and that's a very important distinction. You know, the stuff that they do is not to put them against YouTube and Spotify. It's to show that Apple, the megacorp has got an eye on creators.

Just like back in the day they had an eye on independent music creators or whatever else. And, and you know, and they released GarageBand and so on and so forth and they released like Imovie and all that stuff. So yeah, it's great.

And I think that's what the podcast show did really well. Like getting that coup of getting Apple to be the first people to speak. I think it's a coup for them.

But I think it shows the position of the podcast show within the global, the global podcasting conference ecosystem, which, you know, I think it probably leads us on to something around, you know, is it the top, is it now the top event in the world?

Danny: 00:11:40

Yeah, and I know like a lot of when I'm on Reddit or online and feedback, we heard when, you know, podcasters came up to the booth, etc.

g and it's, it's harder about: 2018

Mark: 00:12:01

add to: 2018

Danny: 00:12:05

Yeah. So I feel there's definitely.

Maybe it's because of my first time there, but I did feel it got the mix just bang on with between what you wanted from big bands and big businesses and for creators and smaller, you know, people and actually on the track, etc. One of the things I did notice with the, the podcast show in London is, and this could be because of the video discussion.

It's always ongoing, you know, we hear it every day.

But there wasn't a lot of hardware manufacturers actually present, you know, on the show floor you had Audio Technica, so they had their mics and headphones. But then the majority of the other stuff was all about video. So you had like storage cards, you had like cameras.

Canon had a big, you know, a big space there. And I'm wondering now, is it now? I was surprised. I thought, you know, Suntronics might have been there because that's a UK company.

We really good mics and podcasting gear. I'm wondering now is, are events like this less about the equipment and more about connecting with people, getting the latest news, etc.

Or is there still an opportunity for hardware companies to come back in?

Mark: 00:13:07

Yeah, good question. Back in, all of the events that I've ever been to that have been PodFest, Podcast Movement, MapCon and Indie PodCon.

Any of the, you know, any event that I can Think of into thousands of them at this point.

You, you see, you used to see, like you say, a lot of mic manufacturers and so on, and the guys at Heil and Road Road, maybe a touch, but certainly like Hill, you know, Ash and the team, they're fantastic and they've always had a presence at these things and they didn't this year. You know, they were there, but they didn't have a booth. I don't think Heil, which I think is the first time for a long time.

And I think it, I think it speaks to a couple of different reasons. I think the first one is that podcasting has become such a broad spectrum term. You know, as you say, it's.

Much of it is video first, whether you like it or lump it. My builder always says, I watched a podcast last night, I don't care. It's up to you, man. You know, as long as you've been exposed to the idea of it.

So that when you're in your car and you're like, oh, actually there's a bloody app there. This is podcast. Maybe I can just listen to them as well. Like, cool. You know, there's a reason that it's now become mainstream.

51 of people now in the UK have said they listen to one that is mainstream. We've tipped. And that was revealed by James Cridland from Pod News, I think at the show.

And I think that that speaks to the fact that when you put an industry show together, you get more interest now from a more diverse range of brands and there's only so much floor space.

So from a sales perspective, selling booze space and whatever else, and selling exhibitor space and brand partnerships and whatever else, you know, there is only so much you can do.

But at the same time, if you're the MIC manufacturer or if you're the whatever, a manufacturer of like a Hindenburg, for example, you know, you make the software unless you're going to get activations or you're going to get, you know, significant brand positioning from being there.

There's actually not that much point because, you know, like with captivate, 90% of our conversations, as you know from being on the booth, were with current users, which is amazing. Like, it's amazing.

And we've always loved that for the last 11 years that we've been doing conferences, like every single conference we've done has been more about the people that already use us and we want to make feel special. And we, you know, as a proxy from that, as a byproduct, you get, you get the halo effect and other people coming to you because they hear about.

And that's. That's. It's just an experience and service first business. But if I flash back to, like, the pre Covid years, we'd always exhibit.

We'd always have a booth, but we'd always do a mega meetup. And we did this time. You know, we did a brilliant meetup. Again, as you know that you were there.

We always do a fantastic meetup to close the podcast show. And it's brilliant. It's really, really well attended.

In the past, we've done like, mega go karting trips, mega topgolf trips out in Orlando, like every. Our meetups were, like, legendary. And we get as much from that as we would from being in a booth on the show floor.

Because as the shows are getting bigger, you know, I think James Cridland reported that. I think Jason had told him it was like 6,000 summing attendees across the two or three days. That's bigger than most of the shows. All right.

Way bigger. And it's because. And we'll get to some of this later.

It's because of how it's structured and the kind of talks that they have and what they do with the. The sessions and such, which we'll get to in a bit. But it's also.

The point is that it's bigger because more people are interested in podcasting because it's now a broader spectrum of creator toolkits and creator output and creator ideas. It's not just, I sit here and do audio, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't that. This isn't just that anymore.

So because of that, in that limited floor space, you. You. You're almost now getting like, say, a mini conference, which is what Chris Chromitzos does really well at PodFest.

You know, you're almost getting, like, mini events within the podcast show where, like, the Captivate stuff, all right, we'll just do the Captivate meter because that's for our people. And it's, you know, you'll get a few hundred people that'll see you.

We'll invite everyone that we invite, and we'll keep giving invites out right until like, five minutes before the meetup opens. And we'll get a lot of people there, and that's our pocket. That's our little thing. And. And.

And so you end up with this, like, little mini bubble within the show. And the people that don't come, like, that's cool. They're.

They're off doing the thing that they need to do because they're actually more interested in video, first of all, the more interested in, you know, you know, scripted fictional narrative drama style documentaries. And they've got their pocket over there.

So because it's so big, what is the things that happen in every industry and every in every, in every possible line of interest that becomes mainstream subdivisions and subcultures begin to exist.

And that's what's happening now in podcasting, which is why you can have such a big show that feels weirdly represented when you're used to coming from like a podfest or a podcast movement. You know, this is a show about podcasting. It's not a show for podcasters. Well, certainly not solely for podcasters.

And that's quite an important distinction, I think.

Danny: 00:18:41

It definitely felt that way. And I'm sure we can even speak about this in the negatives of the show if you like.

But when we're up in the mezzanine, there's lots of side areas where people can hang out, connect, visit different brands, although some of them were closed off unfortunately.

But yeah, it seems that people were planning ahead for meetings and connections at the events as opposed to just waiting for the networking events to happen. So it definitely felt like that. And it almost feels like you mentioned that 90% of the users that came up to us were captivate users at the booth.

It almost feels like maybe you start to plan ahead. So, okay, well, do we miss a booth one year and do just like events and connections and integration meetings and all that kind of stuff?

Because it's, it's a prime event. It's now arguably the biggest in the podcasting space.

So, you know, I feel that's definitely a way that move forward for a lot of brands like you say. I mean, I was disappointed. I was hoping Haya would be there or Suntronics, because I like these guys. I'd love to check out their equipment.

I'm an equipment geek. But I also get why they might not be there.

Because like you say, it is an outlay and you need to show that return, you know, more than just brand lift or brand recall. Because they're big names, they don't really need that now. It's more about, you know, what actually comes back to them, I guess, if that makes sense.

Mark: 00:19:59

Yeah, yeah, it does.

And I feel that there's, there's, you know, this is almost like the podcast advertising space at this point as well, where, you know, if you go back, say like maybe even six years, you know, just six Years, people, and even now, people are still doing this. But it's not, it's certainly not, I wouldn't say the norm anymore.

People were trying podcasting as an advertiser, not necessarily knowing how to match the roi, not necessarily knowing what they were buying, not necessarily knowing the value of an impression or, you know, whatever else they were, they were trying to target, you know, especially if it was like direct response stuff, like, how well is this going to do?

And like, they maybe got a couple of years worth of buys out of it before they had to go back to the big brand marketing team and say, well, actually, maybe podcast advertising is good, but we don't know, maybe podcast advertising isn't for us. We're just, we're not quite fully sure yet.

And that's when people start, you know, after a couple of three years, they start saying, well, you know, maybe we shouldn't be putting the million quid a year into the advertising on podcast. Maybe we should be doing something different. And it's a very. That's a very basic example, but I feel like there's a.

And there's a lot more nuance to it than that.

But I feel like, you know, the first couple of campaigns or the first couple of years of ad buying on podcast, you get through the budget because it's a bit of a. It's a bit of a. It's.

Someone said we should do it or it's a bit trendy marketing consultant that we've paid a bloody fortune for said that we should probably try it. And then afterwards you're like, well, what did that do for us? Should we do it? Should really do it again?

Danny: 00:21:42

Sure.

Mark: 00:21:42

And conferences now have got like that. Like when it was just podcast movement, arguably. PodFest. PodFest, sort of a different beast because it is pure creator stuff.

That's what Chris does so well with that, you know, it was right crap. We've got to be at all these events, otherwise people think we're going out of business.

Or, you know, Blueberry is going to get a tech, our hosting company business.

Or, you know, Robert Libson is going to be chucking business cards at people and, and he's going to be, you know, he's going to be getting our users and it's all kind of, you know, not true and there's no need for it now. You know, everyone, all the businesses that were startups back then aren't anymore. They're established, you know, and we're around.

And, you know, if I, I produce far less content now than I'VE ever done because I've been doing it for that long, I don't have as much to say anymore. And what I do say, you know, is usually well placed and it's more high impact. It's just not as constant.

And, and, and, and that doesn't mean that people listen to me less or respect me less or I get asked to do less things or I'm less present or anything else. And the, the, the whole industry is like that now.

In, in that you've got so many people that are now in the space that you physically can't do everything. And you don't have to do everything. You can turn up a couple of things and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's good to catch up.

You know, it doesn't have to be. You're going to Evolutions. Yes. Sweet.

All right, well, I'll see you in a month at the podcast show, and then I'll see you in another month at X, Y and Z at the British Podcast Awards, the Independent Podcast Awards, the International Women's Podcast Awards. I'll see you at Podcast Movement. I'll see you at Podfest. I'll see you at VidCon, south by Southwest.

I'll see you at X, Y and Zed Awards for these specific niche bubbles that we've got. You know, I'll see you at the Rain Summit. I'm going to see you at all the upfronts, all the IAB stuff. And that's just off the top of my head.

You just, you can, and you don't need to do it anymore. Anymore. Whereas before. Are you gonna be at podfest? No. Oh, really? Is everything all right?

You know, I remember Josh at Zencaster not going to PodFest podcast movement for a couple of years. And, you know, everyone thought he was struggling, and he came back and he turned back up and was like, no, I'm good. Just didn't come. And it was.

But there was only one or two of these things that had any, any, any, any impact on the industry, and now there's just so many of them.

And I think that's, that's, that's the reason that you see less manufacturers, you see a diverse range of exhibitors, and you see the ones that come back are the ones that touch different elements of podcasting, like the sound booth guys. Like, those guys have been there. They sell these amazing, beautiful sound booths.

You know, Global have been kitted out, I think, by them for all their studios that you and I went around when you, when you were over. They're there every year because anyone recording video or audio needs a decent space to do it. But you might. Am I a road guy? I'm a he guy.

I'm a sennheiser guy. I'm a beringer guy. I mean, a shure guy. Don't know. So it's. It's a very. It's changed. Everything's changed, man. Everything's changed. And I.

I think that's reflected then and in. In. In this problem that we talked about at the beginning. How do you create a show that targets everyone?

And that's why I think where podcast movement has struggled. You know, I love Dan and Jared and all the team involved over there and. And the legacy team that have been involved over there, Gary and the team.

But it's the same show every year. And it. Don't get me wrong, I love it and it's difficult to do. Like, I want to be that person doing it, and I respect it and I admire it.

ngland. We talked about it in: 2016

And I think what the podcast show does real well is after.

After year one, they actually called me up and I'm sure a lot of other people and said, we got a lot of feedback from creators and it wasn't good enough for them. What do we do? And I said, well, you need a creator stage. Just have a track that's for creators and put a stage there. That's it.

It's easy to just do that. And, you know, you've got your theaters in the mezzanine, which, you know, I'm not gonna lie.

The naming of them, the corridors up there, they aren't great. Like, it's a nightmare trying to find your way around. It's not good.

That's one thing I think they need to improve and, like, stop putting names on stuff like room. Just call it room three. Like, I don't care about your origin theater or your this, that, or the other. It's an absolute nightmare to find it.

Just put room three. Because then what you do. Oh, that's room two. Guess what's next. It's not like, you know, here's the pistachio ice cream nut flavor. What's next?

I don't know. Could be anything. I don't know which room's next. Like, that's a big problem for them.

But they did listen to the creator stuff, and because they do what they do really well, that I feel Like a lot of other conferences don't do. And I feel like PodFest doesn't need to do this because it is very tactical, strategic and creator focused, actionable stuff.

They can focus on just the do this, do that. Here's how you grow, here's how you do X, Y and Z.

What the podcast show does well now because of the feedback that we all gave around the creator stuff is the creator stage is very often go and do this if you want to grow your show. You know, Jordan and I did that, that session to kick the week off where it was, you know, like, you know me, it's just no B.S.

you know, here's how you do it and if you don't want to do it like that, then that's cool, that's up to you. But that is how you do it. Like there's no sitting on the fence. Don't do the other stuff. That's the thing to do. And that's really good stuff.

But what they do really well at the podcast show is they embrace all levels of, I don't want to say talent, but creators, advertisers, brands, all the different tiers of podcasting are represented. You know, you might have Fern Cotton and you know, a Gary Lineker or, or you know, someone, a real big kind of, you know, face talent.

You might have 10 of those a day.

But you've also got like, okay, there's James Crland and Sam and the Mellen guys and then the Captivate guys are doing this and actually these are really good people that. And, but they're not teaching, they're talking about the industry and that's real top tier stuff. And then you've got the tactical stuff.

So they have got the programming pretty right, in my opinion. They have got the programming pretty right.

And that honestly is where every other conference that has tried to straddle all elements of the industry has struggled.

They've not been able to get the balance of content right because they've not been able to sell tickets to creators and they're not given much creator content or vice versa. You know, they've had to, they've really struggled. And it's, it's, I think it's down to the size of the venue.

I think it's down to the understanding of the market. I think in, in certainly in Britain you've got like I say, a couple of big players as well.

Obviously you've got Spotify, you got Global Acast, whatever in terms of like content production. But then you've got some really Big production companies like the Goal Hangers of the World and the Adolescence. Sorry, not the Adolescence.

What's Pascal's other company, Noiser, that are really damn good at history stuff, for example. So you've, it's just, they've just got a nice mix and it's well considered. So I, yeah, that was a bit of a, a bit of a long one.

But I think that's why this show now stands out. And you know, again, I like, I like, I love going to the U.S. you know, I love the shows in Orlando.

I love turning up at a hotel and, and seeing everyone that I know and getting in the lift, the elevator down from my room and that's where the show is. My podcast show ain't in a hotel. It's in a really impressive looking venue in the center of London. And the, just the brand and the feel of just.

It feels like the entire industry representation in a place that is befitting of an industry that has grown up as opposed to a conference that is in a hotel. And I'm not poopooing the hotels like PodFest is in a hotel.

Podcast movements in a hotel and, and podfest is big, but it is for creators and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a bloody brilliant conference. It is, it is arguably my favorite of the entire year.

It's not trying to attract, you know, John Sorrelpo, Gary Lineker, all these people that, that it's that it, that it, that the podcast show is. So it doesn't need to be in that venue, but the industry does. It needs to look.

You know, if it was in Vegas, it wouldn't be a like, no offense to podcast movement or NMX back in the day. Like it wouldn't be in the Westgate, it'd be in the Las Vegas Convention Center.

know, like when I did NMX in: 2014

Actually that's the NAB show and we're sort of pretending to be bolt onto it, bolted onto it, but we're actually just, we're in this hotel, it's the West Gate. So yeah, there's a lot to unpack there, mate. I've just sort of dropped everything on you there.

now, back to that postpone in: 2020

So a fair play man.

Danny: 00:31:09

No, I, I'd agree, like my little brain's taking all that in. But yeah, I'd agree. 100, mate. It's, it does feel, and I've said it a few times on this episode, it does feel a very different vibe.

And I said that to you on day one, you know, so it does work. They've done a really good job. It does bring me and only being fair and all, you know, our discussions, lots of good stuff there.

Lots of good stuff that worked and lots of good stuff that, you know, everybody in the industry can, can be a part of and enjoy. What do you feel you mentioned there about the, you know, what could be improved?

For me, I was looking at the, we were upstairs at the global space on a mezzanine and that was a nightmare to try to get people because it was just like crowds of people going two directions and a very small. It was like the compactor trash thing in Star Wars Episode four. Right. You felt like that.

And I joke to you, we should make it just like a one way system or something. So what do you feel? Was there anything that wasn't.

Didn't quite hit the mark this year based on previous years, or was that still, you know, a real good event for you?

Mark: 00:32:11

I think, yeah, I think it's the logistics of that mezzanine are difficult. It's a mezzanine level that's not that wide. There's a lot of bottlenecks to it. And I think a lot of people would agree with that.

I mean, is it a major problem? Probably not. But if it keeps growing, it is going to be a major problem. So I don't know. I think somehow they will need to address that.

They've tried to do that by for example, putting some stages on the exhibit floor, which has rapidly decreased the amount of exhibit space. But there are certain stages there now, which is great. That's certainly a thing. The sign posting was shocking.

Like I said, the names of the rooms, like sort that out. I don't care about your origin theater, I just want theater one.

Is this like use the signs that are already on the rooms because you know, the worst case scenario is you see the signs that are on the windows. Because it's that busy, you can't see the actual sign the podcast shows put up there all you can see is like the.

Whatever it is, like the number, like I said earlier, number two. You're like, okay, right, I need to be number one, so I must keep going. So I think little logistical things like that.

There was like a couple of things around, like trying to get your passes that were much, much slower than this year. The fell understaffed on getting the passes for a lot of people, and I've had that from speakers and the general attendees as well.

Like, just getting the passes seem way more difficult this year. But I, I don't know why that is. I honestly don't know why that is. And you never know what the official parties are or what the.

Like, you know, every, every, every. Every show that I've ever been to has had like a major official party. And like, was it the iheart one this year? Was it the Aircast one?

I honestly don't know. Like, they all had parties and we had our meetups and everyone else had meetups. Riverside have on whatever. I don't know what the official one was.

And that's one thing that these other shows have always done very well. Podcast movement and podfest. You know, we've had some cracking nights at, like, how. At the Moon.

Some cracking nights out down in Texas where they had like this massive outdoor gig space and massive barbecues and everything. That realistically, is where you get a lot of the serendipitous connections happening. Because what doesn't happen when you have those circumstances?

What does happen a lot of the time at the podcast show, which is, are you going to the Amazon one? Are you going to the ACAS one? Are you going to the Spotify one? Well, I can't go to all three of them because they're all separate.

They've only got 150 people at them anyway, each one of them, and they're all at the same time on a Tuesday night. So I've got to miss one. Whereas if you just say, right, here's a mega party, get someone to pay for it, Here's a mega party.

We've rented out a club, we've rented out or whatever. I mean, it's London. There's a pile of venues. We've rented out this one mega place. Like 90 of people, 80 of people are going to be there.

That is where the magic happens when you get everyone together and, you know, the, the person at, you know, XYZ company never thought that they would end up working with a hosting platform because they didn't see any need for it. But that hosting platform has Been desperate for a connection like that. They just didn't know. No one knew.

You know, and, and, and the serendipity that you lose by having these little offshoot meetups, it's, it's such a waste and such a shame because you can't get everyone there and it's like that is where the magic happens. Otherwise people stick to themselves and they stick to their own little buddy groups, which again is cool.

But you can get so much more out of not doing that. So that's another thing I would say is. And I, you know, maybe they do have like a mega official party. Just we.

I didn't know which one it was and that's probably bad because it might have been the iheart one that global partner with. I didn't know if that was the big one, the official one. I don't know. I still don't know. I should probably ask. But.

Yeah, I would say that would be quite a thing. There's probably three or four other things, but nothing major.

Danny: 00:35:59

Yeah, I, I think I'd agree with like I wasn't sure what, you know, which events you should be going to. I think for me, thinking from a creator side attending, obviously I was very captivated. But if I was thinking from a creator side, the, the up.

Speaking of the magazine up on the mezzanine you had these little booths just off to the side and each one had a brand, product, etc. And some were full access, some were gold access, some were premium, some are premium gold or whatever the past is what called.

And I feel that sometimes made you feel that it was just out your reach as a career. I want to talk to this guy because I love their brand but I can't talk to them so I've not got the path and it's invite only that kind of stuff.

I wonder if there's an opportunity to move them into rooms behind closed doors. I know like we spoke about Apple, they were up in the corner and a closed room with no signage but they were front facing on the talk.

So I wanted some opportunity there to make some of the, the gold and premium stuff off the rooms and then keep these little booths that are on Amazon for anyone can attend.

Mark: 00:36:57

Yeah, that's the thing that's crept into podcasting. It was always there.

You know, it started with like your entrepreneur guru has been like, I can't come to the meetup where all the people that are paying me money are going to. Instead I'm gonna go at this private meetup that's only for six Figure plus entrepreneurs.

And it's just my friend or whatever that's, you know, and my friend Gary Vaynerchuk. And he's not his friend or her friend. It's just someone that.

They've got their book and they went on the podcast once and it's just this massive circle jerk, you know, And I, I hated that. Like, I never did those. You know, it was, it was that thing where you. We'd start getting invited to them when people realize we weren't.

And it was then, well, I'm not going because you are an. Because you're actually doing this and it's stupid. Like, these people are paying you, so go and spend time with them.

And then that evolved into like, you can't come into this area unless Spotify say you can. Right? Oh, that's cool. No problem. Like, I don't really care about that. That's completely fine. But guess where I'm hosting ain't where you lot.

So you, you end, you end up with this sort of weird thing. And a few companies have backed down from it before recently, you know, they've stopped doing that.

But I did see that up in, like you said, up in the mezzanines, and there was nothing going on in them. It was like, we've got this space just for our meetings. Like that is you.

The amount of coffee shops, the amount of places you could go and actually have a human relationship and a conversation, like barmy, you know.

And the sad thing is in most of those booths, it was just people running from meeting to meeting to meeting to meet into meeting to meeting in a shirt with sweat patches on it, you know, shoes that are from probably like the first wedding.

And, and just it wasn't, it wasn't conducive to, in my view, good meetings, you know, and, and, and, and there are, there are people that would have benefited from talking to us about some of the needs that we might have as captivate that were very dismissive because they were. Oh, no, you don't have access to our room, so I can't talk to you. Well, guess who we don't work with then?

We work with the other people that, that don't do that. That, you know, it's just, you know, by you.

Danny: 00:39:22

All right.

Mark: 00:39:23

Yeah. Have you got 10 minutes? Won't mind talking about this. Yeah. Actually, do you want to go get a brew? Yeah, of course.

That's sound because we're knackered. It's four o' clock, you know, and that's, that's where the Good stuff comes. That's where the good stuff.

Now, I understand that the industry is different.

I understand the ad buyers and the ad platforms and people like agents and talent management and all that stuff are used to that kind of thing, but it's all, it's still rubbish, it's still crap. And I still don't believe that that's any better. And I think the podcast show, yeah, I, I quite.

I quite agree with you that, you know, yes, sell that space, but make it bloody useful, you know, make it bloody useful, like, just.

I don't know, there must be a better way to sell that space where a lot more people can use it, but the brands that want that uplift from having the logo on it can still get the uplift. I don't know. Just thinking out loud, mate. But yeah, there's a lot of dickheadry still in podcasting and it is. There's a lot of classism.

There's a lot of class, you know, stuff that still goes on in podcasting. I think those are the kind of places that it becomes quite, quite apparent that it's happening. You know, you can't come into this booth, all right?

You've. You've quite literally not even asked anyone why they might want to talk to you. They just, you know, have you got a meeting? No stars. Weird.

Weird, mate. Weird. And that's, that's genuinely just not how you do business.

Danny: 00:40:44

100.

And just like I said, that was the big takeaway I saw from the, like, from a negative side, if you like, but obviously we could talk for hours again on episodes, but it's come to that time, we don't want to finish on a negative. Obviously we never do. So we're going to do our little.

Mark: 00:41:01

The flattering ram.

Danny: 00:41:06

So, Mr. Mark, you've been at the show a few times. Who would you give a flattering ram to? You know, from this year, I just.

Mark: 00:41:13

Want to give a shout out to the Captivate team. You guys always do a smashing job and this year was no different. You know, everyone's constantly excelling, so that was really good.

So that's, you know, everyone should be deservedly flattered on, On. On that note, it's difficult to pick one person out that I'd sort of do a flattering ram to.

For me, it's just all the friends that I've made over the years that I bumped into and I can't possibly name them all without annoying someone that I'll forget.

But it's, it's, it's just everyone you you know, if we spoke and you'll know that you're included in that because I, I have that many friends that I've met. Oh.

Like I barely spend any time on the booth, if anything, because I'm either catching serendipitous meetings with people or I'm struggling to get around the room because I see that many people that I've not seen for a year since the last one. And we're catching up and so on and so forth. It was great to finally meet Jamie Anderson from the Jerry Anderson podcast.

It's great to meet him and just, just good to see all. All the kind of creators that we know and love and people that have helped us through the years as well. So that was. That was pretty cool.

I feel like there's someone I was going to give a shout out to, but I can't remember who it was. Oh, I'm gonna give a shout to Drew Toyn before getting sequel Pitch back going at the show because it's my favorite podcast, so I want to give a.

Give a shout out to him on that one.

Danny: 00:42:32

Awesome. I know he was excited to get that relaunched, etc. It's nice meeting Drew as well.

I'm gonna have a really quick shout out spoke about before, but I'm gonna give a shout out to Apple, in fairness, to be a.

Mark: 00:42:42

That's who it was.

Danny: 00:42:45

There you go. Reminded. But yes, I, I thought I was. That was a good thing to see. And like you say, they don't have to do that. They're a big enough company.

So to be giving a talk to creators and saying, you know, we're here, we're creative friendly. That was nice to see a big podcast show like the podcast show in London. So, yeah, that would. That'd be my one mate for sure.

Mark: 00:43:02

I would. I just sound like I'm bandwagon in there, but I promise you like that. That was actually the one that I was thinking of. Is it just a.

You know, I'm pleased that we got a tour of Battersea, their offices, which is stunning. It was great to see Ted and d' Asia and Tasha and everyone else that was there. You know, Ben and just everyone.

It's always amazing to see him call and the team. But yeah, you know, Jake and the team going up there and doing the talk. Yeah, it was nice to see a little bit of.

They are very human people when you know them. They're fantastic people. But public facing humanity from a brand like Apple was very refreshing. So. Yes, I agree.

Danny: 00:43:44

There you go. I will Send the invoice in the mail for that reminder. You're very welcome for that. But yeah, I've enjoyed this, mate.

I wanted to catch up, like I said, do a quick bonus episode of the podcast show in London. It's been my first time, so it'd be nice to, you know, get feedback and talk about that. So thank you for appearing on your own show, mate.

It's always good to have you on it.

Mark: 00:44:04

Oh, it's yours now though, isn't it? I rarely get a chance to do this one. It's.

I find time very difficult to record at the minute and do content, but it's actually quite interesting to come on and talk at you because I don't, I don't do it that often. Everything mounts up and I'm like, right, Danny's asked one question, so I'm gonna answer 50. That'll do it. So, no, thanks for having me, dude.

You're doing, you're always doing a cracking job, mate. And I'm looking forward to, to the episode next week with Gordon as well.

Danny: 00:44:31

Yeah, it's gonna be, gonna look forward to that on the legal side of it. And because you're on, you know, infrequently, I'm gonna hand over the reins to you to give us. Take us out, mate, take us out the door.

Mark: 00:44:40

Well, thank you very much, sir. Yes, it's always a pleasure. We've got the wonderful Gordon Firemark coming up next week to talk all the legalities of you and your podcast.

Gordon is, is by far and away the world's leading podcast expert when it comes to the legal side of it. And we actually saw Captain Marvel together when it came out and at PodFest in Orlando, which was absolutely cracking. So much love to Gordon.

Thank you to you, Danny Brown, for being a fantastic host and once again, good to see you.

I'll be back, I'm sure at some point in the near future to do a bit of co hosting duties, but if you enjoyed it, give us a shout at in around podcast over on the Twitter, in around podcasting.com and tell your friends, of course, but they're. You can tune in on their podcast app of choice.

So until then, keep doing what you do, keep flattering other people and just keep telling people that what they do is important as well. We'll see you on the next one. Bye bye.